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Talk:Watch Out Now/@comment-3284502-20150625194200/@comment-3284502-20150626000752
An open war is one thing. Utilizing what amounts to dark magic to sneak into a camp and kill someone in the middle of the night with no way to possibly defend themselves is quite another. Moral ambiguity is one thing, but literally EVERYBODY considers using the shadow demon to be an evil trick. Catelyn very emphatically does not give a fuck about either Baratheon, and is pretty realistic about war and its horrors, and even she considers it vile. I wouldn't have a problem with it at all, because, like you said, everybody in these books are morally ambiguous, but Stannis can't seem to accept that. He still does all of this and insists it is his right and he has done nothing wrong or even questionable. I could forgive it if it lead to some sort of growth for him, but I seriously doubt it will. I can live with characters not having honour (Hi Cersei!) but they need to have SOMETHING redeemable or interesting about them. I have got absolutely JACK SHIT to like about Stannis or find interesting about him except the intense rages he inspires in me. Also, a quick point on Melisandre, why wouldn't people underestimate her? It's not like she goes around with a fucking sign saying she can summon freaking shadow demon things. All Renly knows about her is she's a priestess who told him to consider his sins before a battle. That's really not unusual. He had no way of knowing she could summon abominations from hell. Nobody really knew she was magic until she survived the poison Cressen gave her, and Renly has no way of knowing about this. Nobody thought anything of a priestess talking about sin on the eve of battle. I don't consider it underestimating her, because nobody had any way of knowing she had power to underestimate. I would say using magic is a dirty trick when you've agreed to an open battle - at least when you use it to launch sneak assassinations to kill a man in his tent when the battle hasn't even began and there's no way they can fight back. There's no honour in that. It's a pracitcal move on Stannis' part, to be certain, but not an honourable one. Honourable people put moral caveats on certain things, and judging by what we know about Westerosi concepts of honour, I'm guessing sneak attack shadow monster assassins are considered moral no-nos. And Kinslaying is DEFINITELY a no-no. It'd be a no-no if Renly did it as well, but Renly also didn't go around bleating about honour and how important it was. I don't profess Renly to be perfect - like you said, he's reckless, frivolous, and egotistical. But I do profess him to be a better person, and better potential king, than Stannis. Stannis is an ass to his underlings, even those who are loyal and helpful, like Davos. Stannis doesn't understand or particularly care about how others feel. He also holds his grudges like a bitch and a half. I do feel the detail oriented need to point out Renly never really made fun of Shireen - he made fun of the Lannister rumour that she was a bastard daughter of their fool Patches. He also made fun of the idea Joffrey was a bastard. Largely it's to establish he thinks they're BOTH lying to strengthen their legal claims instead of just admitting it's about who had the power and strength to claim and keep the throne. It's about akin to claiming they're both full of shit. As for Brienne, if it is true (Loras is a jealous little shit, I'm not sure I'm willing to listen to what he says about the lady lusting after his lover) I could not tell from how he treated her. He was very nice to Brienne outwardly, even making her his standard bearer, and assigning her to back up Loras in the van. He could've just told her to fuck off when she asked to join the Rainbow Guard. Nobody in Westeros would consider it dishonourable to refuse her entry, since she's a woman, even if he promised she could pick her reward. Instead he told her yes. If he truly thought she was so disgusting, he did a very good job hiding it - I guess it comes down to how you see it. I see it as being mature and being nice to someone even if you think them silly (and even a little gross), but I can also see how someone would consider it being fake. I don't though - he never goes out of his way to profess how fond he is of her, he just treats her the way he does all his allies/friends/whatever we're calling them - with casual friendliness. Stannis on the other hand has the nerve to get PISSY when Davos reminds him he can't read, even though Stannis is the one who forgot he couldn't, and Davos was doing him a fucking favour. Simply put (because this is a long ass post already) I can see how Renly isn't perfectly squeaky honourable - and very few are - I do profess him to be a better man than Stannis. All of that said? I've not given up on him. I do believe Stannis has a chance of making me like him. Stranger things have happened in Game of Thrones. But right now, I hate him. Not as much as Joffrey or Gregor Clegane or Littlefucker, but I do hate him. If he DOES ever lose the self-pity, ego, pride, and massive, MASSIVE hypocrisy, he will have grown up and developed and I stand a chance to like him. Especially with his relationship with his bby girl. As it stands now though, as much as I respect Stannis has his fans and they have their reasons to love him, I am not one of those fans and I doubt I ever will be.